Best combination for Onkyo/Denon and B&W/KEF?

[Pixies]

Hi all,

I've been talking recently with the sellers at some of the hi-fi shops
of my city. I was surprised when one of them told me that Onkyo uses to
develop its amplifiers and receivers jointly with KEF, whereas Denon
does the same with B&W. Therefore, the sound you may get by combining
an Onkyo amplifier with KEF speakers is usually better than that you
can get by combining it with B&W speakers, whereas the opposite holds
for Denon amplifiers, i.e., they are better suited for B&W speakers.

Do you think that's right, or that's just an opinion?

Thanks,

[bob]

Post by Pixies
Hi all,
I've been talking recently with the sellers at some of the hi-fi shops
of my city. I was surprised when one of them told me that Onkyo uses to
develop its amplifiers and receivers jointly with KEF, whereas Denon
does the same with B&W. Therefore, the sound you may get by combining
an Onkyo amplifier with KEF speakers is usually better than that you
can get by combining it with B&W speakers, whereas the opposite holds
for Denon amplifiers, i.e., they are better suited for B&W speakers.
Do you think that's right, or that's just an opinion?

Why in the world would Onkyo, say, want to design an amp "optimized"
for a single brand of speaker? From a marketing standpoint, that
strikes me as suicidal.

From an engineering standpoint, it strikes me as impossible. You can
design an amp to drive a particular speaker (e.g., make sure it's
capable of driving that particular load, fixed EQ for any anomalies in
the speaker, etc.). But how do you design an amp for a line of
speakers, which will have different impedance and FR curves?

bob

[Peter Wieck]

Post by bob
Why in the world would Onkyo, say, want to design an amp "optimized"
for a single brand of speaker? From a marketing standpoint, that
strikes me as suicidal.

Like Bob says...

And consider that good electronics will perform aptly with good
speakers irrespective of their makes. Almost to the point of mutual
exclusion.... purportedly general purpose speakers that 'do best' only
under specific condition are therefore not 'general purpose'.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Pixies]

Hi,

Thanks for the response. I know it may sound bizarre, but that's what
happened. What's more, last weekend another seller in a different store
told me the same---i.e., that KEF and Onkyo develop their products
jointly.

Maybe that assertion is related to the fact that in my city the range
of "premium" brands offered at the different shops is rather narrow,
basically Onkyo and Denon for amplifiers, and B&W and KEF for speakers.
Had I wanted upgraded speakers, I should order them specifically.
Therefore, it is really difficult to test how different set ups sound.

Thanks,

Post by bob

Post by Pixies
Hi all,
I've been talking recently with the sellers at some of the hi-fi shops
of my city. I was surprised when one of them told me that Onkyo uses to
develop its amplifiers and receivers jointly with KEF, whereas Denon
does the same with B&W. Therefore, the sound you may get by combining
an Onkyo amplifier with KEF speakers is usually better than that you
can get by combining it with B&W speakers, whereas the opposite holds
for Denon amplifiers, i.e., they are better suited for B&W speakers.
Do you think that's right, or that's just an opinion?

Why in the world would Onkyo, say, want to design an amp "optimized"
for a single brand of speaker? From a marketing standpoint, that
strikes me as suicidal.
From an engineering standpoint, it strikes me as impossible. You can
design an amp to drive a particular speaker (e.g., make sure it's
capable of driving that particular load, fixed EQ for any anomalies in
the speaker, etc.). But how do you design an amp for a line of
speakers, which will have different impedance and FR curves?
bob

[bob]

Post by Pixies
Hi,
Thanks for the response. I know it may sound bizarre, but that's what
happened. What's more, last weekend another seller in a different store
told me the same---i.e., that KEF and Onkyo develop their products
jointly.

That much could conceivably be true, if KEF and Onkyo are owned by the
same company (which I doubt). But it still wouldn't change the fact
that there's no reason to assume the two would work together and better
than they would with other brands.

But it's far more likely that, in your region, KEF and Onkyo are sold
by the same distributor, and wind up in the same stores, where salesmen
are trying to sell you a complete system.

My advice would be to decide which speakers you like, and then try and
wangle a discount on an amp from the same store. Speakers are far and
away the more critical component, and you should build your system
around them.

bob

[Peter Wieck]

Post by Pixies
Had I wanted upgraded speakers, I should order them specifically.
Therefore, it is really difficult to test how different set ups sound.

DO NOT, repeat DO NOT order speakers unheard. Or if you do, make sure
you have a no-questions-asked return option. Speakers are typically the
weakest link in any system, whereas the brute reality is that all
should follow from them, not lead up to them.

Power is cheap. Most electronics are cheap. Speakers, relative to
quality, are emphatically not cheap unless you focus on a very, very
vanishingly few vintage types... whereupon you will take on all sorts
of other difficulties.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Pixies]

Hi,

Thanks for you kind response. Unfortunately, it is quite difficult to
hear a wide range of speakers in my city---even though it is a big
city. Home cinema is killing hi-fi, so even at specialized shops it is
difficult to hear premium speakers. They can order them if you want
them to, but then you have to buy them.

For instance, some of the sellers also told me that JBL Studio series
is really good, much better than some B&W or KEF low range series...
however, it is impossible to test them.

In addition, buying the speakers on-line is much more cheaper...
therefore, you have to spend a lot of time chatting with a seller you
finally are not going to buy him/her anything...

Thanks,

Post by Peter Wieck

Post by Pixies
Had I wanted upgraded speakers, I should order them specifically.
Therefore, it is really difficult to test how different set ups sound.

DO NOT, repeat DO NOT order speakers unheard. Or if you do, make sure
you have a no-questions-asked return option. Speakers are typically the
weakest link in any system, whereas the brute reality is that all
should follow from them, not lead up to them.
Power is cheap. Most electronics are cheap. Speakers, relative to
quality, are emphatically not cheap unless you focus on a very, very
vanishingly few vintage types... whereupon you will take on all sorts
of other difficulties.
Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

[Rob Tweed]

Isnt that an interesting observation about home cinema killing hi-fi
- and not suprising in many ways.

I've seen this described, by a UK IT journalist who is also seriously
into his hi-fi, as the "burger-isation" of audio. MP3, iPods, home
cinema and computer games are now what most people hear and a
Macdonalds burger equivalent of a speaker is apparently what everyone
wants and/or expects, or is at least satisfied by.

Ironic isn't it, in an era when the sonic capabilities of commodity
electronics are what we'd have given our eye teeth for a couple of
decades ago.

Ah well thank goodness for eBay I suppose - buy some decent speakers
on spec and if you don't like 'em you can always resell 'em :-)

Post by Pixies
Hi,
Thanks for you kind response. Unfortunately, it is quite difficult to
hear a wide range of speakers in my city---even though it is a big
city. Home cinema is killing hi-fi, so even at specialized shops it is
difficult to hear premium speakers. They can order them if you want
them to, but then you have to buy them.
For instance, some of the sellers also told me that JBL Studio series
is really good, much better than some B&W or KEF low range series...
however, it is impossible to test them.
In addition, buying the speakers on-line is much more cheaper...
therefore, you have to spend a lot of time chatting with a seller you
finally are not going to buy him/her anything...
Thanks,

Post by Peter Wieck

Post by Pixies
Had I wanted upgraded speakers, I should order them specifically.
Therefore, it is really difficult to test how different set ups sound.

DO NOT, repeat DO NOT order speakers unheard. Or if you do, make sure
you have a no-questions-asked return option. Speakers are typically the
weakest link in any system, whereas the brute reality is that all
should follow from them, not lead up to them.
Power is cheap. Most electronics are cheap. Speakers, relative to
quality, are emphatically not cheap unless you focus on a very, very
vanishingly few vintage types... whereupon you will take on all sorts
of other difficulties.
Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

---
Rob Tweed
M/Gateway Developments Ltd

The Pursuit of Productivity : http://www.mgateway.com

[bob]

Post by Rob Tweed
Isnt that an interesting observation about home cinema killing hi-fi
- and not suprising in many ways.

Hogwash. Home theater is saving hi-fi. Consider:

1) Home theater is why we have multichannel audio today. After the quad
debacle in the 70s, no one was ever going to go there again. HT gave
them a reason to do it.

2) HT has been a boon to a wide range of consumer electronics companies
at all but the silly price points. It's particularly beneficial to
speaker companies, because they're now selling three times as many
boxes to each of those customers. That means economies of scale, more
R&D money, etc. Sure, a lot of that is going into low-end products, but
a lot of it was always going into low-end products. Top-of-the-line B&W
hasn't suffered because the company now makes surround speakers. But
the company's probably in better shape.

3) HT is saving what's left of brick and mortar stores. Every store in
my area that could even remotely be called high-end is doing at least
50% of its business in HT. If they weren't, would they sell more stereo
gear? No. They'd be dead.

Just my two contrarian cents.

bob

[Pixies]

Hi,

Thanks for the kind responses. Well, I am not really sure on whether HT
is killing hi-fi... anyway, it is the impression I have.

Turning back to the title conversation, last weekend I visited some
stores in a city larger than mine... I learned a lot, and one of the
things I learned is that it is a hard task to ascertain which the best
setup is, given the THOUSANDS of possible combinations.

The variables that enter the analysis are the brand of the speakers,
the size of the speakers, the brand of the amplifier, the type of
amplifier, the type of music, and the location of the speakers in the
room---and probably more. I tested KEF iQ5, iQ7, B&W 603 S3, JBL E80...
KEF speakers had a deep lack of bass, since they seem to be more
focused to jazz... On the other hand, B&W are more focused towards
classical... The type of music I use to listen to (rock and pop) could
be better fitted by JBL, according to the seller... however, he also
told me that, if that was the type of music I use to listen to, perhaps
other brands such as Monitor Audio would be more appropriate.

What do you think???

Thanks!!!

Post by bob

Post by Rob Tweed
Isnt that an interesting observation about home cinema killing hi-fi
- and not suprising in many ways.

1) Home theater is why we have multichannel audio today. After the quad
debacle in the 70s, no one was ever going to go there again. HT gave
them a reason to do it.
2) HT has been a boon to a wide range of consumer electronics companies
at all but the silly price points. It's particularly beneficial to
speaker companies, because they're now selling three times as many
boxes to each of those customers. That means economies of scale, more
R&D money, etc. Sure, a lot of that is going into low-end products, but
a lot of it was always going into low-end products. Top-of-the-line B&W
hasn't suffered because the company now makes surround speakers. But
the company's probably in better shape.
3) HT is saving what's left of brick and mortar stores. Every store in
my area that could even remotely be called high-end is doing at least
50% of its business in HT. If they weren't, would they sell more stereo
gear? No. They'd be dead.
Just my two contrarian cents.
bob

[bob]

Post by Pixies
The variables that enter the analysis are the brand of the speakers,
the size of the speakers, the brand of the amplifier, the type of
amplifier, the type of music, and the location of the speakers in the
room---and probably more. I tested KEF iQ5, iQ7, B&W 603 S3, JBL E80...
KEF speakers had a deep lack of bass, since they seem to be more
focused to jazz... On the other hand, B&W are more focused towards
classical... The type of music I use to listen to (rock and pop) could
be better fitted by JBL, according to the seller... however, he also
told me that, if that was the type of music I use to listen to, perhaps
other brands such as Monitor Audio would be more appropriate.

I don't know who is telling you all this--a salesman?--but I wouldn't
put too much stock in it. I know someone who is very happy listening to
rock and pop on B&W 603s, for example. To each his own. Also, a good
speaker isn't "focused to" a particular genre. A good speaker
reproduces sound accurately, whatever the sound is. (Granted, no
speaker is perfect, and some sound better--to some ears--with certain
types of music. But the best speakers won't specialize.)

If you like a particular type of music, you should bring some samples
of that music with you when you audition speakers. Then YOU can decide
whether each speaker sounds good playing YOUR preferred music. That's
all that matters.

You're right that there are many variables involved, but some variables
are far more important than others. Speakers matter a lot, and
speaker-room interaction matters a lot. Testing the latter requires you
to get the speakers into your room, which is tricky unless you can
wangle loaners or return privileges. (Good luck with that.)

Amps and speaker-amp interaction matter much less. Most speakers on the
market don't present killer loads (because speaker manufacturers have a
strong incentive to produce speakers that can be driven by lots of
different amps), so you don't have to sweat this one too much,
especially if you're sticking to solid state. I suggest picking out
your speakers first, and then going with an amp from the same store.

The key thing to remember is that there's lots of good gear out there
these days, so you don't need to obsess about finding just the right
thing. (You can if you want to, and some people do, but it's not
required.) Listen to the speakers you have available to you, playing
the music you like, and pick what sounds best. It's not so hard.

bob

[Pixies]

Post by bob
I don't know who is telling you all this--a salesman?--but I wouldn't
put too much stock in it. I know someone who is very happy listening to
rock and pop on B&W 603s, for example. To each his own. Also, a good
speaker isn't "focused to" a particular genre. A good speaker
reproduces sound accurately, whatever the sound is. (Granted, no
speaker is perfect, and some sound better--to some ears--with certain
types of music. But the best speakers won't specialize.)

I 100% agree. Indeed, one of my setups combines an Onkyo stereo
receiver with B&Ws 603 S3, and the sound is quite good---despite at the
store the B&Ws sound didn't seem that great compared to other cheaper
speakers.

Post by bob
If you like a particular type of music, you should bring some samples
of that music with you when you audition speakers. Then YOU can decide
whether each speaker sounds good playing YOUR preferred music. That's
all that matters.
You're right that there are many variables involved, but some variables
are far more important than others. Speakers matter a lot, and
speaker-room interaction matters a lot. Testing the latter requires you
to get the speakers into your room, which is tricky unless you can
wangle loaners or return privileges. (Good luck with that.)

Yes, I think that's the main problem, when you try to mimic the
scenario in which you usually listen to music.

Post by bob
Amps and speaker-amp interaction matter much less. Most speakers on the
market don't present killer loads (because speaker manufacturers have a
strong incentive to produce speakers that can be driven by lots of
different amps), so you don't have to sweat this one too much,
especially if you're sticking to solid state. I suggest picking out
your speakers first, and then going with an amp from the same store.

Yes, I think that's the best alternative.

Post by bob
The key thing to remember is that there's lots of good gear out there
these days, so you don't need to obsess about finding just the right
thing. (You can if you want to, and some people do, but it's not
required.) Listen to the speakers you have available to you, playing
the music you like, and pick what sounds best. It's not so hard.
bob

Well... yes, although I think that your final advice might be the best
thing to do, i.e., choose the speakers and then the amp from the same
store. The only problem is that sometimes they have some speakers in
one room, and others (for instance, the premium speakers such as B&W
703) at other room, thus they have to hook up your desired setup...
however, I guess that's a minor problem---in case they want to sell.

Thanks for the wise advice,